I'm Leon Coningham from the SBS Inclusion Program.



And I'm here talking to Dwayne Fernandes from the NSW Department of Communities and Justice about disability,

employment and workplace adjustments.


Dwayne, you might share with us a little bit about your disability.


So I am Dwayne Fernandes. I am a double below knee amputee, missing a few fingers on my right hand.


And as of age 37 I got diagnosed with ADHD.


And what sort of work do you do?


So, I am a manager of HR projects.


That wasn't my starting role. Generally in government, when you ask about a certain issue or everything else,

suddenly you end up having to drive the projects. And I asked where my people, people with disability, and suddenly I was in the HR space driving disability inclusion.


So right now I'm a manager of HR projects in Department of Communities and Justice, but I've had a 10 year career in government,

starting as a business analyst and then working my way through the HR spaces and driving disability inclusion in various different areas.


So talking about your own needs.

What sort of workplace adjustments do you need for you to perform at your best?


So as a double below knee amputee, accessibility is quite simply the ability to work wherever I need to,
right?
So if you need me to climb up a set of stairs, that's a barrier, right?
The way to think about this is a social model of disability.
I have conditions, missing fingers, missing legs,those types of bits and pieces.
But when you add the barrier, that's when you end up with disability.
Disability equals conditions plus barriers.
So for me, the barriers are you have to physically come to this location, you have to climb that five stairs to engage in this part of the business.
And so for me, flexibility, believe it or not is actually one of the big adjustments required.
Also things like accessible parking, and the ability to work with the team collaboratively and physically in-person sometimes, and outside remotely if need be,that's some of the basic adjustments that are needed.

So by flexibility, you mean flexibility around what time you work, whether you're at work itself or... 

I'm fairly lucky,right? So I'm a back office support staff member.
So therefore for me to process a report, do I need to do it at the same time as everybody else?
Probably not as long as you're managing my outcomes and you're getting it when you need it.
I don't need to physically be there. So I can work remotely or in-person or wherever it needs to do what I need to do.
Sometimes I have to talk to somebody so I need to organise a meeting, get there, have a chat with them or I can do it via Teams.
So,virtually, and those are some of the adjustments that I needed.
And,that helps me get my job done.


So you've been getting adjustments for some time now.But how did you go about originally getting adjustments made for your workplace?


So the first time I needed workplace adjustment is not when I started my role as a person in Transport. It's when I lost my ability to walk, using my prosthetic legs.I was dealing with a bunch of psychological issues in the workplace as that happens with people with disabilities,you know, peer pressure and things of that nature. I applied for a new role. And in this new role, I had this new manager and they saw me arrive to work, noticed the amount of pain I was in wearing my prosthetics to come in. This is day one and this was in Department of Planning and realised that no, you need to be more remote right now so you can heal. And part of that process was filling out this workplace adjustments form which asked me what I needed and they went through the process of giving that to me. This form was simple. It asked me questions about my disability, what type of support I thought I needed.
And then after that, they went through the process of getting it for me. And that entire process from start to finish, I had my major adjustment by the end of the day.
Yeah,that's shocking right for people with disability. Some people will be waiting months and months. But I had a major adjustment which was for the building. I needed access to the building to park and that was achieved by the end of the day. And the minor adjustment was working flexibility that was done.
Second, I got my laptop. And that with a good manager, it felt like a dignified process, and that dignified process meant that I was committed. First day of the job I have all my tools. I have all my access things met. I was in and they saw really good work. Personally,my life was going to crap. I wasn't able to walk but professionally I was producing content, producing information that they need, doing analysis, doing all the stuff that they needed in a timely fashion. Some would say faster than they needed to because I didn't have to worry about the commute. And in the meantime, I was healing. So I was going through my process of exercise on Tuesdays and exercise on Thursdays. Part of that rehabilitation from being a wheelchair user back to walking user. And that process took a long time and it's still taking some time. And that was how I got my first workplace adjustments passport back in Department of Planning.


Can you just talk to us a little bit about what a workplace adjustments passport actually is and how that works?


It's an agreement in a document that the organisation makes with you that says that for the work that you're doing, these are the adjustments you need to be performing at an equal to or greater than, and that's all it is. So some people might need a different mouse. That's it. Some people might need a different keyboard. Does everybody need a different keyboard or mouse? Probably. The question is, does it cost you more to do it? Probably not. And you can make those local adjustments. Some people need flexibility. Some people need access to the building and based on what you're doing. It's aligned that with your job,
right? So I can see how in some places a workplace adjustment can seem like a lot. And that really depends on the manager's viewpoint, right?
A really inclusive manager works towards dealing with the outcomes, and having the outcomes being delivered rather than watching where I am at any given moment.


So just thinking about when you've applied for jobs, people often talk about workplace adjustments being for the workplace, but clearly there's adjustments needed to be made for recruitment as well? what are some of the things you think managers should be thinking about in making the recruitment process as fair and equitable as it possibly can be?


Ask yourself the following question. What is the day to day of the role? Is it sitting in an interview? If you're sitting in an interview 90% of the role,
then that's what your recruitment process should be. Focus on what you're doing most of the time. Is it an analyst? Is it some type of coding?
Is it some type of assessment or other bits and pieces? Do an assessment that is linked to what they have to do day in day out. Because then you get a feel of what they need in the recruitment process. I'm a big fan of, yeah, ask the standard interview questions because the government, we have to do that.
There's always a set of standard interview questions, but I'm a big fan of giving an assessment and even the interview questions with more than 24 hours. Why? Because the person coming to the interview will either prepare or they won't. And you're going to get a completely different answer based on someone who's looked at that thing for 24 hours and assessed it and wrote some things down for themselves that's showing you critical thinking versus someone that is just spitballing the second they heard what you had to say. So you're going to get a better assessment of the person's skills. If you assess on what you're trained to achieve in that, 

what advice would you give to managers who might have a new recruit with, with a disability around working out? What adjustments they actually need?


The simple one is ask the person, it's as simple as that, right? You can predict a lot of things and also it also depends on the maturity of the person with a disability. I'm someone who is 21 years old as an amputee. So I'm an old amputee, although I'm physically 37 that's a young person to be an amputee. And I know how mature I am in my disability. So I know what I need. Sometimes people are new to their disability so they don't know what they need and they're exploring and they're identifying that the way you can make it easier is to really drive that social model of disability, which is conditions plus barriers. And so what you could do is identify all the different conditions.


So you talked before about, the number one thing is to ask the person, but you also discussed that some people might not be able to advocate for themselves because they're maybe not yet aware of what they actually need or they might have intellectual difficulties in doing that.


Absolutely.

Where else can inclusive managers go for information about specific disabilities?


So generally speaking, your HR team is supposed to be loaded full of this information and that's where you start. But if in doubt, you can also trouble the people at Anti-Discrimination NSW. And they can give you examples. There's a whole bunch of workplace adjustment examples available on the website around how people have requested adjustments and what they've got and that'll trigger what you think you might need. So it's a, it's a learning journey, right?
The language around disability keeps changing, what we want to call ourselves and what we need will always keep changing as well and that's just how it is. So do a little bit of reading, look for information and ask for support.

So there's an element of job design around adjustments as well?


Always, but there's always been an element of job design. Have you looked at your role description? Does it ever say exactly what you do day to day?

No,it's a rough guide and the manager adjusts that accordingly. So it doesn't need to ever spell it out. I don't think I know any role description that is word for word exactly


What would be your key piece of advice to a manager with a person with disability? It's just spitball it basically.


I have told people that if you want to hire a person with a disability, just do it because it doesn't affect anybody above you.
They are your person to manage, you will learn a whole bunch of things that you've never learned before.You might get stuff right, you might come out looking up like roses or you might learn some things regardless. What you're going to do is give an opportunity for a person with a disability to showcase what you thought was not possible. And the end result of it is that people are going to continue.
 

You obviously have had, you know, some enlightened managers more recently in your career. But what would be your advice to someone who has a disability and who's trying to get adjustments, but their manager for whatever reason doesn't seem to be getting on the same page. What would be your advice to someone like that?


Showing people the support when it's provided? What does it mean for the team? But after you do all of that and your manager is still saying no,
you could almost do a cost analysis. That's what I did in some of these things. I did a cost analysis of me spending time trying to do things this way or you give me the adjustment and what does it mean for productivity? And the manager still doesn't see the value of you being more productive.The question is, does their manager or does the HR team after you've done that explanation? Because then you've added support and structure to why you need what you need.
That being said, it's a front line role and you need to be in front of certain things, doing a specific task. That's that role. It needs that type of interface if it's telling people, hey, welcome to this organisation, for example, like Service NSW. That's an interaction where people need you to physically be there. I get that workplace adjustments are different for that. It's in the sense of maybe you'll be able to do that while sitting down, maybe you're able to do that four days a week, as opposed to the regular five, those are some of the adjustments. And if you do that with a rotating roster and stuff, you end up with flexibility in the front line 


You've spoken about, asking the person and getting information from the person with a disability around what they might need.
But where else might managers go to get information about disability adjustments?


Well, the manager makes most of the decisions, right. So if you're a manager asking about workplace adjustments, guess what - your attitude's in the right spot. Congratulations. Give yourself a high five. You're on the right path. The rest of it is actually just where to find that information,
Public Service Commission's website has got a whole plethora of information around disability, inclusion, diversity, how to recruit all of those different steps. But as long as your attitude stays open, that this role that I'm about to recruit in can actually be done in a way that I didn't think it was possible. You're likely to get a better outcome through that process. You can then ask your entire HR team, your recruitment process team and your outcome will go from good to great. But in addition to that, you can always ask your disability employment network, they already have people in your organisation.
They're looking for a career bump. As long as your roles are not just grade 1/2 roles and you see us all the way climbing up the ladder, you're gonna get applicants that will amaze and excite you and provide you outcomes that you didn't expect. Keep that open mind and reach out for more information.


One of your early iterations, you felt that the whole process of giving you workplace adjustments was very dignified.
How important is that for both the manager and for the team member to feel?


Essential. If I am someone that wants to work for your organisation and what I'm asking for is like oxygen to me, to do what you asked me to do and you're depriving me of it feels undignified. And if I have to keep asking for it, it stifles my ability to provide you what you want. But if you give it to me immediately with what I need, you're gonna get like a dedicated employee. There's a whole bunch of stats that are out there that says that if a person with a disability gets everything that they need in like the first week they're your employee for longer than you want them in that role. They will stay because you're an awesome manager that considers their, what they need to do. Adding dignity to the process is something that our community gets deprived of a lot because we have to beg and we have to plead for things that are essential to us. And that's the simplest way to say it if I need to crawl into work,
are you going to get the best version of Dwayne? Probably not. But if you, if I'm in a space where I'm able to feel psychologically safe, that dignified element allows me to get there and therefore you're going to get a better outcome for me.


So we've heard when workplace adjustments go well. But if you feel like you're not getting the adjustments that you need, what are your options?

I have Sally Dews from Anti-Discrimination NSW here to discuss what some of your options are.

So, I'm a conciliation officer at Anti-Discrimination NSW. So I investigate complaints of discrimination and help parties try and resolve complaints.
So we don't take sides, but we sit down with both parties often together and help them discuss the complaint and resolve it. So if you've requested an adjustment in the workplace because you have a disability and your employer is not responsive to that request, it may be that you have a complaint of disability discrimination under the Anti-Discrimination Act. If you want to talk to someone about that, you can call our Enquiries line on 1800 670 812.


And the next step after advice, if someone does want to make a complaint?


Then on our website, which is antidiscrimination.nsw.gov.au, you have the ability to lodge a complaint with us.


I'd like to thank Dwayne and Sally for their time on the podcast today.