I'm Leon Coningham from the SBS Inclusion Program.
I'm here talking to Rita Cottrell from the New South Wales Department of Communities and Justice about disability, employment and workplace adjustments.
So, Rita, I think we might start with your own personal journey.
Hello, Leon, my name is Rita and I'm profoundly deaf in the left ear and severe to moderately deaf in the right ear.
I'm one of those one in six Australians that have a hearing loss.
I speak so well and yet you don't often know that I'm deaf or I have a loss.
Rita, could you please tell us what you do?
My day role is I'm a relocation coordinator for Homes New South Wales and I relocate tenants where our properties are being redeveloped.
So I walk with the tenant from the start of the process to the completion of the relocation.
In another role on the disability employee network chair across the eight divisions for Department of Communities and Justice. That entails empowering, envisaging and developing staff within our networks.
It's about creating opportunities for staff with disabilities to be proactive and to come up with solutions to work together with the organisation.
So, what sort of workplace adjustments are needed to enable you to perform at your best?
When we're on MS teams, I need to have the captioning on. MS teams has automatic live captioning.
But in order to do that, people need to speak at a reasonable rate, reasonable pace and reasonable tone. That helps me to be able to hear and read the captions at the same time.
If people talk too fast, the words all blur together both in the captioning and in my hearing aid.
[Leon] Do you think people find it difficult to speak at a reasonable pace for you? 
Those that are fast talkers, and just recently, I was in a training situation, and I was advised by the trainer, I'm a fast talker just interrupt me if you don't hear.
And I said, no, it is a responsibility for yourself as a fast speaker to speak at a reasonable rate, pace and tone because that's true inclusion and diversity in the workplace.
They looked at me and they were very stunned because the responsibility went from me as the person with a disability over to the trainer who did not have a disability.
It was holding their behaviour and their attitudes to account.
What would be your advice to managers having the conversation around workplace adjustments for their team members?
Be open about the conversation, be flexible, be surprised that the adjustments could be very minor, they could be out of your comfort zone.
So be prepared to listen and have active listening rather than you knowing what you want as an outcome. 
Research disabilities. And if it's a known disability for a staff member, research that particular disability. 
Has there been a time when you've requested an adjustment, that that adjustment has not been able to be delivered to be delivered to you?
In one workshop when I was on holidays, I noticed that we're having a workshop in so many weeks and I asked for an Auslan interpreter when I came back on the first day – Do you really require an Auslan interpreter? Yes, there's 54 people, more than 54 people in this workshop. I do need an Auslan interpreter. Can you organise an Auslan interpreter?
But it happened to be a team leader who needed to organise the Auslan interpreter and because we'd left it so long, the demand for the Auslan interpreters, they had been booked out and it was short notice to provide an interpreter from 10 to 3 - 5 hours - you require two interpreters. 
So my needs were not met. My needs were not understood at the time because I talked so well. Why did I need an Auslan interpreter? Do you really need it? Can you just make do with the workshop?
And the other is captioning at a recent very important training on diversity.
I'm as proactive as I normally am and ask for captioning on any of the video content and any of the podcast content that was going to be delivered through this 2-day training workshop.
They came back and said, oh, it's only 10 minutes. 10 minutes can equate to 40 minutes’ discussion within a training over a two day period.
So I was asked to postpone my training while the captioning on these videos were undertaken.
How did that make you feel?
Isolated, helpless, I felt like I didn't belong. I felt like I wasn't on the same page as everybody else.
I felt, oh, here we go again. Here we are now we're 2024.
I could expect that in 1970 but in 2024 we’ve come a long way in technology advances.
My expectations are high throughout the entire world in the global for deaf people.
I want to be on the same page as my hearing work colleagues.
Why should I miss out on vital information?
I'm missing career opportunities when this happens and it's really critical as a worker to belong to the organisation that you spend so much time in, your loyalty, to be proud to work for an organisation.
But how can you be that when the tools are just not there?
Why do I have to advocate and be proactive for that to occur?
So what would be your advice to managers who are recruiting people into their organisation in terms of making that recruitment process accessible?
As a recruitment manager, recruiting staff that have disabilities, think outside the box.
Are you providing a safe space in an interview situation. Are you taking the needs of staff with disabilities into account when you interview, are you having workplace adjustments such as where we're sitting within a room?
If we're doing a face-to-face interview for recruitment, the positioning of lighting, the positioning of sound.
Are you providing questions beforehand. To provide somebody with questions straight away and expect the answers, sometimes people with disabilities who have grown up with a disability may need more cognitive time to answer those questions.
So allowing adjustments in the recruitment process is vital.
In the past, many people have thought that to be fair recruitment process needs to be exactly the same for all individuals. What's your comment on that?
Disabilities affect individuals in different ways and workplace adjustments need to be catered for the individual person, not one size fits all approach.
Somebody who's deaf who uses Auslan may have different needs to somebody who is struck hard of hearing.
We need to cater for different types of disabilities, different diversity. To have one approach for all does not give us fairness, does not give us equity in the workplace.
Our strengths are not being recognised.
Could you describe some workplace adjustments that have worked within your workplace?
We relocated to a new office location. My team leader approached me and asked at the very beginning stages on the planning, where would you like to sit? What is the best seating for you for your disability?
I was stunned that I was involved in the beginning process of procurement.
I looked at the plans and I pointed out a desk that was absolutely suitable for me for my hearing. I was situated on a desk right next to the wall on the right hand side. I have a hearing aid on the right hand side so that prevents lots of noise on the left.
It meant that I truly belong to the organisation by being asked. When we did a walk through, we checked the desk and it was a fantastic involvement involving a staff member at the start of relocation rather than I was an add on later on and the known issues would occur during the team.
So that's an outcome of effectively asking the person what they need as early as possible in the whole process. Do you think the idea of asking the person is the correct way to go about working out what adjustments are needed?
It's important to always ask the person first. Never make assumptions, because I in the past have been placed in other positions when we were relocated to other offices. And I brought up, I don't think this desk is suitable for these reasons.
Oh, no, no, no, it's ok. You'll be fine there.
Six months later, the issues I predicted came up and it was around my disability, around the adjustments to do with my disability.
So it's really important to ask the person first. They live the disability, they have an insight into their barriers, into the challenges. And I knew what was going to come in the future. I wanted to iron out any potential conflict. And it's really critical to have a cohesive team environment, to ask the person first always.
What advice would you give to a colleague or an individual within the organisation who feels that their manager is not giving them the workplace adjustments that they require?
You can always ask your disability employee network for advice. There are avenues to go to have negotiation and there are policies and procedures.
So I would say to the person with a disability to look into those particular policies, to look at your workplace passport.
If you feel that you're not being listened to, you do have Anti-discrimination NSW to go to and you also have your disability employee network. You also have your union, your PSA union representative, try to resolve that issue with the assistance of another trusted colleague or another trusted manager. If that doesn't work, look at other avenues.
So, explain to me deafness awareness training. What does deafness awareness training look like for a manager to undertake?
It's how to communicate with the individual person. It's an awareness of deaf culture.
For example, my facial expressions, as you can see now, my facial expressions are a bit more expressive. You can't see this on a podcast, but you can see this face to face.
Sometimes people take the expressions differently and sometimes the meaning behind an expression can be very misunderstood.
So, this deafness awareness training is a tool to understand culture and understand how to work with a person.
Tap me on the shoulder, for example, or wave in front of me. It's ok to tap me on the shoulder or tap me on the hand, but somebody else may not like touch.
So, it's giving real practical solutions for the person with a disability.
A deaf / hard of hearing, working within a workplace, the deafness awareness training is tailored to the individual.
Given that the workplace is a hearing world, what can your team colleagues do to help you feel like you belong in that world?
They can look at their mindsets, their behaviours and their attitudes and look at having open discussions on my disability.
Think from a perspective that I don't always hear and look at ways to accommodate.
They can start to learn Auslan the Australian sign language.
They can be proactive by tapping me on the shoulder.
They can consider that if they are all getting together for a birthday celebration, bring me along. So I can belong to the team and participate in those activities that involve networking and connection. Because those networking opportunities are part of our inclusive society that we work with today.
So you talk about researching the disability. What are the best places to go to, to find out more about specific disabilities?
Ask your employee if your employee is a source of information themselves, they will be able to direct you to different websites and different information.
The organisation such as ours at DCJ has a disability inclusion playbook. It lives within the intranet in our DCJ website and it has a whole range of resources, videos, content around disability. We have a disability confidence training program that is available for all staff and managers alike.
We also have an accessibility of communities of practice and an accessibility hub which provides information to managers and to staff.
So you're obviously very comfortable advocating for your own disability. What would be your advice to other colleagues who might have a disability around advocating?
Do not be afraid to disclose your disability.
Be mindful of how you articulate what you want the outcome to be.
You will be very surprised that the workplace adjustments that we ask for do not cost money, educating managers, colleagues, training providers and other staff comes from your own passion and comes from your own insights into your disability.
If you're not comfortable with your disability or asking, then reach out to your disability employee network or reach out to your inclusion and diversity teams within your department. They may be able to do that for you. Or you can consider getting a consultant to come out to look at your needs for your workplace adjustments under the Job Access Australia for the EF which is employee assistance fund available to all staff working in employment.
What would your advice to people who might be considering joining a disability network be?
Come on board. We are open to everyone whether you are a champion at an executive level or higher, we welcome you to champion the cause of diversity and inclusion.
We also welcome allies, those who support staff with disabilities in many forms and ways.
We welcome staff who have a lived experience with a disability or disabilities.
Come on board and be part of this journey.
A number of managers may feel that workplace adjustments are quite expensive and yet the opposite is often true. What's your commentary on financing workplace adjustments?
Some of the workplace adjustments that come in are changing behaviours and attitudes of inclusion.
Yes, some of them cost money but others do not cost any money.
How you talk about somebody doesn't cost any money. To speak reasonable rate, pace and tone and how we communicate in the general workplace doesn't cost money.
So there are avenues there where the person with a disability comes up with a solution for a cohesive work environment.
I've been speaking to Rita Cottrell from the Department of Communities and Justice about disability, employment and workplace adjustments.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Leon.
It's been a great privilege to be able to come along and talk about my disability and also workplace adjustments.
So we've heard from Rita about her experiences with workplace adjustments.
But if you feel like you're not getting the adjustments that you need, what are your options?
I have Sally Dews from Anti-Discrimination NSW here to discuss what some of your options are.
[Sally] I'm a Conciliation Officer at Anti-Discrimination NSW.
So I investigate complaints of discrimination and help parties try and resolve complaints.
So we don't take sides, but we sit down with both parties, often together, and help them discuss the complaint and resolve it.
So if you've requested an adjustment in the workplace because you have a disability and your employer is not responsive to that request, it may be that you have a complaint of disability discrimination under the Anti-Discrimination Act.
If you want to talk to someone about that, you can call our enquiries line on 1800 670 812.
And the next step after advice, if someone does want to make a complaint? 
Then on our website, which is antidiscrimination.nsw.gov.au you have the ability to lodge a complaint with us.
I'd like to thank Rita and Sally for their time on the podcast today.